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Subject: »[info]DevDiary 80: “Price is what you pay, value is what
Well, i think to understand tha idea is best to take beginner perspective (no matter about country scale) or an middle-advanced users (in bigger countries).
For them it's quite attractive, to have some other competition to participate, after elimination from main Cup.
Sure, that for countries with few users it's not so important right now (from other hand it's also no harm), but we hope, that finally we will aquire more users, we cant design game only for current situation.
So, its a cup of another chance, Continental Cups are about something different, and it should be addressed via good international competition idea.
For them it's quite attractive, to have some other competition to participate, after elimination from main Cup.
Sure, that for countries with few users it's not so important right now (from other hand it's also no harm), but we hope, that finally we will aquire more users, we cant design game only for current situation.
So, its a cup of another chance, Continental Cups are about something different, and it should be addressed via good international competition idea.
Thanks for the clarification. I thought about it again and I agree that this is the clearest solution. A dedicated day just for the national cups. International (and continental) aspects can be dealt with in the International Cup.
But International can be all of sokker, whilst continental can be for the regions based on FIFA.
With this idea, we basically have 3 competitions with just our home nation, and 1 competition with the rest of the sokker world.
One of the big killers for small countries is their home nation is lacking. Adding another competition using just their home nation will do nothing to keep them.
If we have continental, then it is still 2 competitions for the national teams, 1 for sokker wide, and 1 for a more selective, but not as small as national. This allows us to play more teams, build more rivalries and have more fun.
We have the opportunity to give small nation players a chance, and a reason to stick around. Without them, sokker will not grow in these regions. So whilst we may want to plan for the future, we need to keep the current people so they can recommend to friends etc. and build the game.
So whilst this idea is better than the current system, it is not as good as it can be, and it is effectively giving nothing to small nations (which are the biggest untapped population bases as we are talking countries). So I'm glad the devs saw how another cup could be utilised after the national cup, which in itself is a huge step forward, but a bigger step forward, to help everyone would be much better to take the time on if it already has to be rebuilt anyway.
This is why I have offered to come in and discuss ideas with the DEV team, because things keep getting looked at from the perspective of a polish manager, not one of the 82 countries with less than 100 managers, or one of the 60 countries that don't even have enough managers to fill division 2 (ie less than 40 managers).
I have given multiple ways a continental cup can be incorporated regardless of size of country or length of national cup, and has the potential to grow with the game as well.
If a lot of work is being put in for a small step in the right direction, why not put that lot of work in to making a big step in the right direction
(edited)
With this idea, we basically have 3 competitions with just our home nation, and 1 competition with the rest of the sokker world.
One of the big killers for small countries is their home nation is lacking. Adding another competition using just their home nation will do nothing to keep them.
If we have continental, then it is still 2 competitions for the national teams, 1 for sokker wide, and 1 for a more selective, but not as small as national. This allows us to play more teams, build more rivalries and have more fun.
We have the opportunity to give small nation players a chance, and a reason to stick around. Without them, sokker will not grow in these regions. So whilst we may want to plan for the future, we need to keep the current people so they can recommend to friends etc. and build the game.
So whilst this idea is better than the current system, it is not as good as it can be, and it is effectively giving nothing to small nations (which are the biggest untapped population bases as we are talking countries). So I'm glad the devs saw how another cup could be utilised after the national cup, which in itself is a huge step forward, but a bigger step forward, to help everyone would be much better to take the time on if it already has to be rebuilt anyway.
This is why I have offered to come in and discuss ideas with the DEV team, because things keep getting looked at from the perspective of a polish manager, not one of the 82 countries with less than 100 managers, or one of the 60 countries that don't even have enough managers to fill division 2 (ie less than 40 managers).
I have given multiple ways a continental cup can be incorporated regardless of size of country or length of national cup, and has the potential to grow with the game as well.
If a lot of work is being put in for a small step in the right direction, why not put that lot of work in to making a big step in the right direction
(edited)
@ Raul : even this idea is really good for newer teams to have some more official games to have more training weeks optimized, i think that many teams in middle level (3rd league) won't try to up in league to keep the chance to win this 2nd national cup to have more optimized training to be strong znough in the future to beat easily upper teams (2nd league) and on the contrary, we will have 2nd league teams who will desesperate to never win top national cup and loose too quicky this cup and moreover loose some training with only friendly games till the end of the season and only want to go down to have some nice chances to win cup and triaining ? A gap will be bigger and bigger between top teams (1st league) and other leagues. No ?
I think this fourth competition (League cup) is not supposed to have the same prestige and value as other competitions. I would rather call it an extension of the National cup for weaker teams.
It is just to fill the calendar for teams that are too weak to stay longer in the National Cup and to give them the second chance to play against opponents that are closer to their level and perhaps help them to close the gap between them and stronger teams this way. I think that even in the smallest countries the strongest team should not participate in the League Cup. On the other hand, I know that the participating teams would be playing almost exclusively against bot teams. But I don´t like how inconsistent it would be, some teams playing the National Cup, some playing the Continental cup, either ...
About the continental level, we can actually incorporate it into the International Cup pretty well (especially at lower levels)
(edited)
It is just to fill the calendar for teams that are too weak to stay longer in the National Cup and to give them the second chance to play against opponents that are closer to their level and perhaps help them to close the gap between them and stronger teams this way. I think that even in the smallest countries the strongest team should not participate in the League Cup. On the other hand, I know that the participating teams would be playing almost exclusively against bot teams. But I don´t like how inconsistent it would be, some teams playing the National Cup, some playing the Continental cup, either ...
About the continental level, we can actually incorporate it into the International Cup pretty well (especially at lower levels)
(edited)
I agree with the purpose of it you have presented. I think that is exactly right. But at the same time, a continental cup doesn't need to have the same prestige (it could be run in a similar way, only having those who have been knocked out of cups already if they wanted), and will still give teams similar strength to play against.
I am not opposed to the idea, except for the fact, it takes up a valuable spot in the calendar, which could be used for something that will help more users and more countries.
The continental cup could also fill the calendar, and was placed in there to do exactly that (which is why the very first original idea didn't include those teams still in the cup, but people complained so I changed it to have ways that everyone could participate).
I have not seen any suggestions that allow a continental cup to be incorporated in to the international league/cup, but I also don't see why we should be limiting ourselves to just one competition that the majority get to play outside of their home nation.
The DEVs wanted to know, way back at the start, the motivation for people to play. Well the biggest motivation is good competition, the second is building relationships. This does very little to add good competition to a majority of countries, and nothing for any country with less than 20 users (as the top 8 can't participate, and most of the other "managers" are basically bots, and have just logged in very occasionally over a number of years, doing very little).
It is an idea that was brought up when sokker was at it's biggest, but even then it had the same problems as now, just noone pointed them out. Also no better suggest with what to do with the time was made (unlike now).
So again, step in the right direction for some countries, sure, but still not useful for small nations.
If the DEVs aren't careful, and continue to build things for "bigger" nations, they will lose half the countries in the game, which are a lot of markets that could potentially pay for plus
I am not opposed to the idea, except for the fact, it takes up a valuable spot in the calendar, which could be used for something that will help more users and more countries.
The continental cup could also fill the calendar, and was placed in there to do exactly that (which is why the very first original idea didn't include those teams still in the cup, but people complained so I changed it to have ways that everyone could participate).
I have not seen any suggestions that allow a continental cup to be incorporated in to the international league/cup, but I also don't see why we should be limiting ourselves to just one competition that the majority get to play outside of their home nation.
The DEVs wanted to know, way back at the start, the motivation for people to play. Well the biggest motivation is good competition, the second is building relationships. This does very little to add good competition to a majority of countries, and nothing for any country with less than 20 users (as the top 8 can't participate, and most of the other "managers" are basically bots, and have just logged in very occasionally over a number of years, doing very little).
It is an idea that was brought up when sokker was at it's biggest, but even then it had the same problems as now, just noone pointed them out. Also no better suggest with what to do with the time was made (unlike now).
So again, step in the right direction for some countries, sure, but still not useful for small nations.
If the DEVs aren't careful, and continue to build things for "bigger" nations, they will lose half the countries in the game, which are a lot of markets that could potentially pay for plus
Well, it depends from other elements - as new calendar, final training bonuses, etc. We hope, that it will be more attractive to keep playing in major National Cup always - meybe rounds of National Cup that covers firsh League Cups stages should be much more prestigious and financial awarding, etc. To answer that we need whole final game system and lot of tests.
Idea about training is - when you have 10 slots, it's good to have more official games in week, but not crucial - it will give you more flexibility (to split your young players into different games) but even with 1-2 official games + friendlies it will be still possibile to train them effectively.
So your main motivation should be rather - how to mix my players in competitions, to get a best possible results, than how to aquire more official games.
Idea about training is - when you have 10 slots, it's good to have more official games in week, but not crucial - it will give you more flexibility (to split your young players into different games) but even with 1-2 official games + friendlies it will be still possibile to train them effectively.
So your main motivation should be rather - how to mix my players in competitions, to get a best possible results, than how to aquire more official games.
Thx a lot but every cup is a stop-go round andd if a team was stopped too quickly, the effectiveness of training with friendlies will be ridiculous as it was explained that friendlies will be very less effective than now.
thats why we need 2 official games guaranteed except of cup - and currently we working on two proposals of that kind calendars.
Especially witjh those rules :
3. Minutes played in official games will be much more valuable than the same minutes gained in friendly games.
4. To achieve a training bonus which is close to maximum, the player that you set in a training slot should collect about 90 minutes across the week’s official matches.
7. The players who played an official match and against stronger teams will gain an extra bonus to their training.
Too much bonus training for official games towards friendlies.
And international games will be cup too thus with a stop-go as national cups.
A team could play only friendlies after the 2nde week of the season. Relly bad for training system.
3. Minutes played in official games will be much more valuable than the same minutes gained in friendly games.
4. To achieve a training bonus which is close to maximum, the player that you set in a training slot should collect about 90 minutes across the week’s official matches.
7. The players who played an official match and against stronger teams will gain an extra bonus to their training.
Too much bonus training for official games towards friendlies.
And international games will be cup too thus with a stop-go as national cups.
A team could play only friendlies after the 2nde week of the season. Relly bad for training system.
There is one problem with the training bonuses. People who train juniors tend to use them in the cups, just for the reason that they will get their training bonus. But that makes the cup matches a B-Team competition. Cup loses prestige.
If you really want a league cup, why not go for something in between, which can be inclusive of all nations.
So this is how it would work.
The division cups are based on number of users in a country.
Those with 40 or less (ie can only fill 2 divisions), all play in a small country div 2 cup. No div 3 cup needed.
Countries with between 41 and 200 managers (ie can fill no more than div 3), play in a medium country div 2 cup, and div 3 cup.
Countries with between 201 and 1000 users (ie can fill up to 4 divisions), play in a large country div 2, div 3 and div 4 cup.
What this does is allow teams to play against people of similar strengths, but also keep it interesting for countries of all sizes. This system would also scale well for when sokker numbers grow.
It seems like a good way to have a division cup, whilst letting people play others of similar strengths, gives sometime different to the other national competitions, and let's all countries with at least 1 person in div 2,a chance to participate in meaningful competition
So this is how it would work.
The division cups are based on number of users in a country.
Those with 40 or less (ie can only fill 2 divisions), all play in a small country div 2 cup. No div 3 cup needed.
Countries with between 41 and 200 managers (ie can fill no more than div 3), play in a medium country div 2 cup, and div 3 cup.
Countries with between 201 and 1000 users (ie can fill up to 4 divisions), play in a large country div 2, div 3 and div 4 cup.
What this does is allow teams to play against people of similar strengths, but also keep it interesting for countries of all sizes. This system would also scale well for when sokker numbers grow.
It seems like a good way to have a division cup, whilst letting people play others of similar strengths, gives sometime different to the other national competitions, and let's all countries with at least 1 person in div 2,a chance to participate in meaningful competition
Yes, i'm doing this because as many teams i don't have enough money to get 2 teams available as 1st league teams. Or some 3rd-2nd league stop playing in championship to go further in cup for the same reason (have junior in championship and A team in cup till end).
thats why we need 2 official games guaranteed except of cup - and currently we working on two proposals of that kind calendars.
this thing scares me
you know I think 2 match per week as now is perfect (maybe a regional cup as your idea after national cup and less friendly ok)
3 match per week is ok, but not everyweek (i tried 3 times league+natcup+champions... and 3 games per week are already hard... a bit stresfull but is ok if is not for entire season)
4 match per week absolutely too stresfull
Please only 1 league match per week + 1 national/regional cup per week + eventually 1 international league/cup. I really don't like idea of 2 league match per week...
(edited)
this thing scares me
you know I think 2 match per week as now is perfect (maybe a regional cup as your idea after national cup and less friendly ok)
3 match per week is ok, but not everyweek (i tried 3 times league+natcup+champions... and 3 games per week are already hard... a bit stresfull but is ok if is not for entire season)
4 match per week absolutely too stresfull
Please only 1 league match per week + 1 national/regional cup per week + eventually 1 international league/cup. I really don't like idea of 2 league match per week...
(edited)
Well started with international cup or it will be league, then we can also have regional, then additional domestic cup, also friendlies, also maybe 2 league games per week... its just to much to put in calendar