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Subject: »[info]DevDiary 80: “Price is what you pay, value is what
In our perception, creating two different comeptitions with guaranteed games for all season will lead to the same problem, as we have now - treating second game in week just for training. Lot of users will decide to move young players for second cometition and train them only, and focus with best players on first one.
2 matches guaranteed works best only, when they are in the same type of competition (and it should be most important one, so - league). In that situation, it's getting most challenging - you need to balance your players to find some minutes for young players, but still try to play for results.
Additional cups are another award then - but, you are still motivated to play for win in them - becouse every next stage gives you more flexibility in training during week.
Summarizing - from DEVs perspective, in your proposal it wont be good, to make 2x guaranteed games in different competitions, it will affect gameplay in the way we want to avoid.
BUT - as it's said in Dev Diary - we believie, that your proposal can be introduced too, we are fine with both options - it will just need more work to adjust. To address training problems - it will be maybe an option to increase relevance of friendlies, or maybe allow to play one "warm up" game per week for eliminated teams, as more effective type of friendly game, or maybe even some other, new ideas, for sure it could be fixed.
2 matches guaranteed works best only, when they are in the same type of competition (and it should be most important one, so - league). In that situation, it's getting most challenging - you need to balance your players to find some minutes for young players, but still try to play for results.
Additional cups are another award then - but, you are still motivated to play for win in them - becouse every next stage gives you more flexibility in training during week.
Summarizing - from DEVs perspective, in your proposal it wont be good, to make 2x guaranteed games in different competitions, it will affect gameplay in the way we want to avoid.
BUT - as it's said in Dev Diary - we believie, that your proposal can be introduced too, we are fine with both options - it will just need more work to adjust. To address training problems - it will be maybe an option to increase relevance of friendlies, or maybe allow to play one "warm up" game per week for eliminated teams, as more effective type of friendly game, or maybe even some other, new ideas, for sure it could be fixed.
To be fair, if it was related to national cup and its own entity, it would kind of defeat the purpose of even having an international cup, as it can't work in a fair and unbias way, thus why it is how it is.
I know you are just giving examples of how it can be changed, and flexibility of the entire draw (including the league cup/national cup/continental cup all being able to be played at the same time).
The basis of the draw does tick every one of the boxes that were presented as important by the Devs.
Obviously if option 1 or something similar wins, I'm not going to stand in the way, but if an option wins that I find too time consuming, boring due to lack of variety or bias towards certain nations, or because it just becomes too much of a different game all together, then I will be happy to find another game.
Most of the current people don't necessarily play because they are having loads of fun (some fun yes, but loads, maybe not), but they play in the hope devs get serious again (which they are, thank you DEV team), and that the game is at least improved on the bugs and issues we know are in game. If it is perceived by people the game is no longer sokker, or things don't get fixed, then once hope is lost, people will leave the game for good.
This is why we get one chance to do this, and do it right. I have complete faith the DEVs will fix the known issues in the game that have been around a long time, and can see their enthusiasm including talking with users, which is something that has been missing since the game even started, so that's 2/3 done right, it's just what happens with the 3rd that will be the big factor, and at present I feel it is on a knife's edge which way it goes (not just due to this proposal, but because it seems like there are a couple (not all) behind the scenes who have an agenda and will not budge).
I do think Raul is the easy punching bag because he actually interacts with the community, so let's make sure everything we say is game and not personal, but definitely keep the feedback coming in.
As Slav said, it seemed like the way it was presented was, here's version 1, great great great, and here's another option. And all the facts on option two were not correct, as international cup should be shown as guaranteed 2nd match the whole way through the season
I know you are just giving examples of how it can be changed, and flexibility of the entire draw (including the league cup/national cup/continental cup all being able to be played at the same time).
The basis of the draw does tick every one of the boxes that were presented as important by the Devs.
Obviously if option 1 or something similar wins, I'm not going to stand in the way, but if an option wins that I find too time consuming, boring due to lack of variety or bias towards certain nations, or because it just becomes too much of a different game all together, then I will be happy to find another game.
Most of the current people don't necessarily play because they are having loads of fun (some fun yes, but loads, maybe not), but they play in the hope devs get serious again (which they are, thank you DEV team), and that the game is at least improved on the bugs and issues we know are in game. If it is perceived by people the game is no longer sokker, or things don't get fixed, then once hope is lost, people will leave the game for good.
This is why we get one chance to do this, and do it right. I have complete faith the DEVs will fix the known issues in the game that have been around a long time, and can see their enthusiasm including talking with users, which is something that has been missing since the game even started, so that's 2/3 done right, it's just what happens with the 3rd that will be the big factor, and at present I feel it is on a knife's edge which way it goes (not just due to this proposal, but because it seems like there are a couple (not all) behind the scenes who have an agenda and will not budge).
I do think Raul is the easy punching bag because he actually interacts with the community, so let's make sure everything we say is game and not personal, but definitely keep the feedback coming in.
As Slav said, it seemed like the way it was presented was, here's version 1, great great great, and here's another option. And all the facts on option two were not correct, as international cup should be shown as guaranteed 2nd match the whole way through the season
And Slav, besides the first and second paragraph, the rest is not aimed at you, just general ramblings :)
+10...
Too much games per week ridiculous. Disgusted too!
"Sokker spirit" will be over....
Too much games per week ridiculous. Disgusted too!
"Sokker spirit" will be over....
I comented that mentioned poll many times. For me it was from the beginning wrong question.
We cant use so detailed questions, they are not helping at all, if they are not combined with some general idea behind it.
You can decide about number of games / lenght of the season when you see full proposal - not just deciding first about lenght - no one decide to join some game becouse it's lenght, like: "oh, 16 weeks season, sounds perfect, much better than 12! i'm going to register". You decide about it rather when you see whole picture. Thats why results are so different i think.
Same with 4 games per week - i think, that that question asked without context of 2x league games per week is also pointless, you can agree (or not;)) that you want 4 games only when you know where it will lead to (more teams in league).
We cant use so detailed questions, they are not helping at all, if they are not combined with some general idea behind it.
You can decide about number of games / lenght of the season when you see full proposal - not just deciding first about lenght - no one decide to join some game becouse it's lenght, like: "oh, 16 weeks season, sounds perfect, much better than 12! i'm going to register". You decide about it rather when you see whole picture. Thats why results are so different i think.
Same with 4 games per week - i think, that that question asked without context of 2x league games per week is also pointless, you can agree (or not;)) that you want 4 games only when you know where it will lead to (more teams in league).
For me, with two league matches per week (+ 2 cups), it becomes another Android game (you get tired after two days).
Besides, with 12 weeks you have to renew the players before, the injuries must be changed, the training must be changed...it becomes a game of special dedication.
(edited)
Besides, with 12 weeks you have to renew the players before, the injuries must be changed, the training must be changed...it becomes a game of special dedication.
(edited)
I'm still yet to see a decent argument as to why a second competition is a bad thing.
"will lead to the same problem, as we have now - treating second game in week just for training" - this will happen regardless. People will use cups and friendlies to do this, or they will be throwing matches in the main league just to try to train players. This is not a good thing, because then some teams will get easy games, and others, within the same league, will get hard ones. So this creates it's own problem.
How many people want to play a league where they know that a few teams will go 100% against them, but against their competition, they will play seconds? This will just cause a lot dissatisfaction and frustration.
National will always be the most important competition, whether there is another season long competition or not. This is because everyone has national pride, and wants to be the best in their country. If however a team decides not to focus on their national competition, it is because they are bored of their national comp (ie its either too easy, or too hard). Under your proposal where the only season long competition is the national one, what do you think a bored player will do? Removing other options won't suddenly make the boring one more fun, no, they will just leave the game.
At least with the international competition, if they choose to make that more important in their mind, then they stick around sokker until either A. the get bored of that too (which is less likely because all teams will be similar skilled), B. someone in their country gets better so makes the national comp fun again, or C. they get better and can put up a fight in their country, so national comp gets fun again.
These are all major POSITIVES for having two competitions that go season long, not negatives.
"will lead to the same problem, as we have now - treating second game in week just for training" - this will happen regardless. People will use cups and friendlies to do this, or they will be throwing matches in the main league just to try to train players. This is not a good thing, because then some teams will get easy games, and others, within the same league, will get hard ones. So this creates it's own problem.
How many people want to play a league where they know that a few teams will go 100% against them, but against their competition, they will play seconds? This will just cause a lot dissatisfaction and frustration.
National will always be the most important competition, whether there is another season long competition or not. This is because everyone has national pride, and wants to be the best in their country. If however a team decides not to focus on their national competition, it is because they are bored of their national comp (ie its either too easy, or too hard). Under your proposal where the only season long competition is the national one, what do you think a bored player will do? Removing other options won't suddenly make the boring one more fun, no, they will just leave the game.
At least with the international competition, if they choose to make that more important in their mind, then they stick around sokker until either A. the get bored of that too (which is less likely because all teams will be similar skilled), B. someone in their country gets better so makes the national comp fun again, or C. they get better and can put up a fight in their country, so national comp gets fun again.
These are all major POSITIVES for having two competitions that go season long, not negatives.
Raul, honestly. I am very happy with your work and availability. thank you very much.
but I think you are making a big mistake. This game has survived 15 years (strange for such games) for its characteristics. need to be improved but not revolutionized.
I have the impression that the majority of "historical" users are screaming "be careful! you are going the wrong way":
the setting you have been pushing from the beginning is a total revolution of arcade version of sokker. this probably will have so many new members and enthusiasm at the beginning ... but then it is probably it will lead to the end of the game within a few years.
instead you should ask yourself: how sokker is still alive after 15 years? and try to improve it and make it more fascinating for new players by truly leaving its spirit intact.
(edited)
but I think you are making a big mistake. This game has survived 15 years (strange for such games) for its characteristics. need to be improved but not revolutionized.
I have the impression that the majority of "historical" users are screaming "be careful! you are going the wrong way":
the setting you have been pushing from the beginning is a total revolution of arcade version of sokker. this probably will have so many new members and enthusiasm at the beginning ... but then it is probably it will lead to the end of the game within a few years.
instead you should ask yourself: how sokker is still alive after 15 years? and try to improve it and make it more fascinating for new players by truly leaving its spirit intact.
(edited)
Lol @rapelo
I read "For me, with two league games per week (+ 2 cups), it becomes another Android game (you get tired after two days)." as "For me, with two league games per week (+ 2 cups), it becomes another Achmid game (you get tired after two days)."
I was like, DAYUM rapelo, that's rough :D
I read "For me, with two league games per week (+ 2 cups), it becomes another Android game (you get tired after two days)." as "For me, with two league games per week (+ 2 cups), it becomes another Achmid game (you get tired after two days)."
I was like, DAYUM rapelo, that's rough :D
@Rebel.81.
+1, so much +1.
This game survived so many years, and that was with DEVs who didn't care.
We now have DEVs who do care. Whilst I have loved all the discussion of new competitions, and it excites me that if done right, we could have a well run international league, a well run continental competition and a well run league competition (in addition to the national comp), we need to be so careful not to kill what made this game last for so long to begin with.
And some of these things I think are being changed.
So whilst change can be a good thing, it needs to be more of a bending of what works, not moving away from what works. And the big things this game offers are, good timeframe (16 weeks), competitions that don't happen more frequently than each week, predictable weekly timeframe, a slow, but not too slow training regime, and a pretty decent 2D match viewer.
I'm sure there are more to the above, and I could list a few things which could be adapted (but not complete overhaul), but I won't in this post. Because really the aim of this post was to salute a sentiment Rebel stated that I think so many loyal sokker managers can agree upon.
+1, so much +1.
This game survived so many years, and that was with DEVs who didn't care.
We now have DEVs who do care. Whilst I have loved all the discussion of new competitions, and it excites me that if done right, we could have a well run international league, a well run continental competition and a well run league competition (in addition to the national comp), we need to be so careful not to kill what made this game last for so long to begin with.
And some of these things I think are being changed.
So whilst change can be a good thing, it needs to be more of a bending of what works, not moving away from what works. And the big things this game offers are, good timeframe (16 weeks), competitions that don't happen more frequently than each week, predictable weekly timeframe, a slow, but not too slow training regime, and a pretty decent 2D match viewer.
I'm sure there are more to the above, and I could list a few things which could be adapted (but not complete overhaul), but I won't in this post. Because really the aim of this post was to salute a sentiment Rebel stated that I think so many loyal sokker managers can agree upon.
But your positivies works also with group stage & play off idea (it's always a nice challenge, to play at international level with similar teams) - but keeps you motivating for wining.
with play off system, your challenge is about perfect balance in all competition - to play as many rounds as you can.
When you will set international cup in guaranteed formula, you can just decide it will be for training, and you will no teg any punishment for that.
In system with 2 league games, you can still use international one for training, but you need to be aware, that after losing some games you will be eliminated, and in second part of season you will need to find more time for your training in league games.
with play off system, your challenge is about perfect balance in all competition - to play as many rounds as you can.
When you will set international cup in guaranteed formula, you can just decide it will be for training, and you will no teg any punishment for that.
In system with 2 league games, you can still use international one for training, but you need to be aware, that after losing some games you will be eliminated, and in second part of season you will need to find more time for your training in league games.
But we will be able to train our 10 A team player in one official game, no ?
Why the others official games during the week will be needed for training ?
Why the others official games during the week will be needed for training ?
Ok, guys, quick survey update, it goes like that now (added two more answers):
Please choose your prefered option about season calendar *
- Option 1
- Option 1 - but still need to be reworked (different competition system, different number of guaranteed official games, number of teams in leage, etc.)
- Option 2
-Option 2 - but still need to be reworked (different competition system, different number of guaranted official games)
- I don't want any changes
Very good adjustment.
Please choose your prefered option about season calendar *
- Option 1
- Option 1 - but still need to be reworked (different competition system, different number of guaranteed official games, number of teams in leage, etc.)
- Option 2
-Option 2 - but still need to be reworked (different competition system, different number of guaranted official games)
- I don't want any changes
Very good adjustment.
All Devs know, that 4 games could be huge difference for users (even if on paper it works best for us). But that is why we decided to focus on that two ideas, and lest's see how will votes spread. For sure we will be very carefull with any changes, to make sure that they work.
I belive in tests and beta version, there will be always a time to make one step back if it will be really needed. And we also think, that we can introduce some transition period, to make sure that idea works - maybe for first option it can be one test season, with 2 league games per week and national cup, but without international competition yet - and after that we will decide, that we should add another game in week, or move back for just one league game in week.
I belive in tests and beta version, there will be always a time to make one step back if it will be really needed. And we also think, that we can introduce some transition period, to make sure that idea works - maybe for first option it can be one test season, with 2 league games per week and national cup, but without international competition yet - and after that we will decide, that we should add another game in week, or move back for just one league game in week.
@raul what you guys doing is totally wrong you play on democracy but what actually happens is pushing your solution since beginning . That is even worse than implement changes without discussing them. You waste our time every week I'm trying to believe you and every week I'm disappointed more and more.
As you said it's not democracy here so stop play nice.
As you said it's not democracy here so stop play nice.
But we will be able to train our 10 A team player in one official game, no ?
Why the others official games during the week will be needed for training ?
If you are able to achieve that sweet spot.. Right now many teams aren't structured that way because of current training system and it will be expensive to do it in a short period.
Why the others official games during the week will be needed for training ?
If you are able to achieve that sweet spot.. Right now many teams aren't structured that way because of current training system and it will be expensive to do it in a short period.