Subject: »[info]DevDiary 80: “Price is what you pay, value is what

You don’t pay for something if the development is non existent or they don’t focus on areas of the game that most impact you. Development is snail pace , there is next to no communication, the revenue is unfairly biased to larger country bases (sponsorship/gate receipts), there is no formal tutorial, the transfer market is unfavourable for our time zone, 3 matches a week and shortened seasons when no one wanted it, need I go more?

You don’t give money to things like that. If you get poor service there’s no way you tip anyone and if you were 1-2 hours late at serving I wouldn’t be paying for the food either. Good thing I don’t have to deal with expected tipping culture because I’ll never understand why you should tip if you get bad service

You dont understand that people dont want to get their players injured in meaningless (for them) NT games? Whats there not to understand?

You clearly haven’t seen good nt managers then if you think everyone is replaceable. They’re not always replaceable. Language barriers exist, time zones exist, cultural differences exist, on top of that some go beyond simply setting a lineup each week. So you probably haven’t been around long enough to know or experience that.

Well I disagree with everything except your last paragraph, but even then, I would pay more for plus if it gave back in return.

I used to buy plus every year. I bought plus when the game way dying and nothing happened. I have said that when so called improvements didn't continually increase the divide between large and small nations, that I would buy plus again. I can afford plus with no issue at all, and I would pay more than the current price, but every change made has either hurt small nations or not hurt or hindered anyone.

You obviously have not had a good NT coach or been active in a large number of NTs yourself. Just look through all the Asian countries forums and you will see there is in most cases no interaction in the local community at all.

Then go to nations with a good NT manager and look at the progress the team makes and the communication in the community. When I took over, Australia u21 was ranked in the 50s and 60s. We are now 34 due to community engagement.

Recently I am see how much the Indonesian u21s have improved, and that's due to community engagement.

A good NT coach is worth their weight in gold for the game and the developers bank accounts, and it is proven by all the nations with non active NT coaches that there are NOT plenty of plus user managers who are just as good ready to take over.
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Problem is that most communities are already long dead by now so it doesnt really make much of a difference.

I think it's fair to make NT managers to have PLUS in order to see players skills. They made great function for us (NT managers), let's pay the for this. Fair business.

But, if we're paying for it than we need to see all players skills, in sense that noone could hide the skills coz i'm paying for it :)

"You don’t pay for something if the development is non existent or they don’t focus on areas of the game that most impact you. Development is snail pace , there is next to no communication, the revenue is unfairly biased to larger country bases (sponsorship/gate receipts), there is no formal tutorial, the transfer market is unfavourable for our time zone, 3 matches a week and shortened seasons when no one wanted it, need I go more?

You don’t give money to things like that. If you get poor service there’s no way you tip anyone and if you were 1-2 hours late at serving I wouldn’t be paying for the food either. Good thing I don’t have to deal with expected tipping culture because I’ll never understand why you should tip if you get bad service"


Then why are you still here? For a product that's really so awful (your words) here you are, every day "coming back for more food".

You aren't wrong but some can be revived before they do die and even grow.

When I came back to this game, I basically got back just in time to stop the number 1 team from leaving the game (he buys plus every season).

I managed to keep a couple of old teams around just ticking along rather than quitting the game. They generate ad views.

I taught multiple long term users how training and tactics actually work through hours of committing time to them, and they are still here.

I've brought back double digit number of teams to the game and advertised on other we browser games to actually grow the numbers of users in Australia, whilst most countries numbers continue to fall.

Good managers, who often go on to become good NT coaches, can single handedly stop a nation from dying, which gives devs more time to finish their updates and advertise, because "when new players sign up" (which we are all doubtful will happen anyway), they will need mentors and people to make the game interesting and involve them.

So yes, I agree that many nations are dead making trying a lot harder, but it doesn't mean you don't try. If you can keep someone in the game 6 months longer from a small nation, that gives time for someone else to sign up. Suddenly that new person signing up has two people to talk to. Now the first person also has more interest and stays longer because they enjoy helping someone. So on it grows.

This new change is trying to force NT coaches to pay money to not be at a disadvantage to other NT coaches and therefore their country being at a disadvantage. It's guilt tripping coaches in to paying, when in fact what it will do is push those good NT coaches without plus away, only to be replaced by someone who doesn't care about the community, or it will take time away from the good NT coach who now needs to spend more time trying to get skills rather than creating competitions for their community, fantasy teams, tipping competitions, extended statistics etc to keep the community involved

Where does it state that non plus users won’t be able to see player skills? Did I miss something?

NTs should not be monetised in any way. By all means things that are minor QoL improvements to do with your own side or for minor things that don’t impede the nt management process can go ahead with plus, eg stats, cosmetics, no ads, he’ll even not being able to see other club matches is acceptable because they all tie to your club that you own. NTs are not owned, they’re a bonus responsibility that is determined by other members of the community and therefore earnt. Player skills are important for NTs in order to set squads/lineups etc. This is what I’d consider essential and a massive in game advantage (something which plus page itself says it doesn’t give you an advantage). Also you can see your own club player skills free of charge.

You bring up some fair counterpoints. Much more logical than cometer. Here's the thing though.

What does the entire NT program actually bring to the game? Explain this to me. In your words, what is the actual value added to the game that is tangible to the players in that country. Let's use Singapore as an example.
Singapore has 12 users. Why should ANY of them care about the national programs?

You can't say "it promotes them having youth schools" because we ALL know the #1 reason we have youth schools is to make money.

Does the fact you have greatly improved your national U21 team really, truly matter? Did it make anyone go and buy PLUS? You have to look at this from views other than your own.

I also think it's fair for those who actually tutor to get the tutor title and the free plus that comes along with that too, but hey, I guess I haven't gone to the devs and asked given the amount of tutoring and competition organisation and community interaction I do for the game.
It's probably also fair that if someone works for the devs and bring in 10 users that I get more than 3 days plus in return.
It's probably also fair that if you stop people leaving the game and some of those people buy plus, that you should get some sort of reward.

There is a lot of give and take in this game, highlighting just one small improvement which other Web games give for free, as a reason to buy plus is extremely short sighted. Maybe every plus user should spend $35/yr (australian) for each development that has been made. So your next bill (if you didn't get free plus for being a tutor) would be

-new league structure $35
- new training $35
- see players skills $35
- new home page $35
- new fixtures page $35
- reduction in injuries % $35
- reduction in injury timeframe $35
- reduction in average gate income $35


They are all developments, if one is worth $35/yr, why not all of them for a total of $300/yr?

Many small nation managers only stick around sokker because they enjoy the national team aspect of the game.
They stick around sokker because they enjoy seeing their players play for the NT and the pride that comes along with this. This has been stated by many users in these forums from many different countries.

I know this isn't necessarily the case with larger nations though, and that's because it is so hard to get a player in the team, and that is one of the few downsides of being part of a large nation.

There are even users like Vampyr (from Poland) who buy small nation NT players and adopt a country and enjoy seeing them play or at least knowing they are playing.

Does it really matter? Yes, because it has been a community goal to get our team firstly in to the 3rd pot for world cups, and then in to the 2nd pot and to qualify for the world cup group stages. It has been a community goal which has kept many people interested in the game.


Has it led to more plus users? Yes. Me coming back to sokker after quitting and commencing the community talk again, reviving the national team etc has led to agbell staying in the game. He was about to quit. He buys plus every year. And he is the best example of this as he has stated as much in the past.

So all these are tangible statements with facts to back up.

Of course I still care about my own team, but no where near as much as the NT. And I enjoy the NT because I enjoy bringing the community together.
I run the U21 Asian cup because I enjoy bringing the community together, a cup many enjoy participating in (although I have been disappointed by the number of recent NT managers who despite asking to even post about the cup in their community, don't even post a hello in it).


The NT and training players for the NT keeps a lot of users in this game, primarily from small countries, many of which, including myself, are prepared to overspend on players, train too long and overall make less money for their club team, all for the pride of the National Team
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Typical response and a pretty narrow view if that’s where you take it.

Never said the game was awful, just that devs and most of their improvements/decisions are awful.

1) I play for the social aspect with others I have known a while

2) I’ve spent numerous years (well over a decade, probably closer to 2 now) playing this so time investment and attachment as a result and the fact the game has potential (the game is fun but the direction and general dev support is rubbish. I’d also argue that having been a moderator for years working for the devs counts as payment

3) The game was advertised as one where it wasn’t pay to win and for a long time has remained so. Had the game been pay to play from the get go I’d not be playing but since there’s a free option it’s worth playing currently in the hope improvements are made in the right direction (then payment for support becomes a thing).

4) Payment options aren’t viable for my situation.

new diary

Simple solution as I saw on this forum. Keep injuries separate from NT and club games, the same way cards are kept. This way we can keep both parties happy:) (assuming new views will show NT data, not club - like it is doing right now with cards)

When it comes to buying plus to see NT players skills - I would call it cheap money grab.

However when it comes to seeing good and bad NT coaches - there is no rule at all. For last 5-6 seasons I had no issues with communicating my training plan/player positions. In Poland we have Cabalerro - different culture, but he suits well in our community. If I can brag about myself - I do my best to suits into Japanese community, but it is hard for such small nation. On the other side this season I had one coach who were... not so friendly. He was using my 3x years old player with slight injury in official matches for two weeks, coz I hidden players skill during injury time. Thankfully his injury didn't get worse. But I know that there are also coaches who don't give a damn about NT after being 'elected' by account creation date.