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Subject: [GD] International Cup
I got so invested in my own plan-making that I forgot to say something about these cups.
It is important that all players will get the opportunity to play in a cup.
This is so lame, it sounds so loser friendly. I don't want to be an a-hole here, but everybody plays it? Are we are gonna have hundreds of world champions every season?
International stage should be a reward for a good result in the national competitions, not a consolation prize.
This is not gonna make people fight for every position in the league, no proof of that. This actually might damage the league, because there isn't gonna be a big difference between the cup for the champion and the cup for the 3rd position team. So it might be better to focus on the international cup, and then, because of a bad position in the league, you participate in a little weaker cup next season. And it has to be only a little weaker, because if EVERYBODY participates in these cups, then you can't have a big differences between cups for the teams in the same league.
Also, better earnings?
You can see it on the transfers, we already have very good earnings.
League should be the focal point of the game. National cup is already a bit of an issue, seeing how it can negatively affect the league. We shouldn't add more stuff that would damage the leagues.
I am not against international tournaments where everyone can participate, but it should be far less important than the leagues and CC. So, no big prizes, or no prizes at all.
I would prefer that there are several types of these cups, starting at various points in the season. I didn't place them too well in my plans, but the following segments should determine the start and the length:
Weeks from league round 4 to round 11 (this is when top seed teams play vs bottom seed teams)
Weeks from league round 4 to round 7 (top seed plays vs bottom seed first half)
Weeks from league round 8 to round 11 (top seed plays vs bottom seed second half)
Weeks from league round 12 to round 14 (top seed vs top seed, bottom seed vs bottom seed)
My 2 cents :)
It is important that all players will get the opportunity to play in a cup.
This is so lame, it sounds so loser friendly. I don't want to be an a-hole here, but everybody plays it? Are we are gonna have hundreds of world champions every season?
International stage should be a reward for a good result in the national competitions, not a consolation prize.
This is not gonna make people fight for every position in the league, no proof of that. This actually might damage the league, because there isn't gonna be a big difference between the cup for the champion and the cup for the 3rd position team. So it might be better to focus on the international cup, and then, because of a bad position in the league, you participate in a little weaker cup next season. And it has to be only a little weaker, because if EVERYBODY participates in these cups, then you can't have a big differences between cups for the teams in the same league.
Also, better earnings?
You can see it on the transfers, we already have very good earnings.
League should be the focal point of the game. National cup is already a bit of an issue, seeing how it can negatively affect the league. We shouldn't add more stuff that would damage the leagues.
I am not against international tournaments where everyone can participate, but it should be far less important than the leagues and CC. So, no big prizes, or no prizes at all.
I would prefer that there are several types of these cups, starting at various points in the season. I didn't place them too well in my plans, but the following segments should determine the start and the length:
Weeks from league round 4 to round 11 (this is when top seed teams play vs bottom seed teams)
Weeks from league round 4 to round 7 (top seed plays vs bottom seed first half)
Weeks from league round 8 to round 11 (top seed plays vs bottom seed second half)
Weeks from league round 12 to round 14 (top seed vs top seed, bottom seed vs bottom seed)
My 2 cents :)
no mater what are the tournaments will be (international ones) i suggest at least in first round to not have teams from same countries drawn against each other. I tried to avoid facing this team all season and here go first round of CL :) all happiness of qualifying to CL is gone i assume that is why i would prefer group tournament
https://sokker.org/studio/matchID/37138042
https://sokker.org/studio/matchID/37138042
Will the international cup games affect fan mood the same as national league and cup? In connection with the training bonus for official games that would mean you'd have to choose between success and training (which shows competitive schedule and training system should be discussed together), even more than now. If you play with younger trainees in the national cup you'll be eliminated soon and won't drop fan mood too much, and after that you can play them in friendlies, but in an international cup with a group stage you could lose a lot of fan mood if you want full training. (Unless the training bonus is only very small, but in that case managers wouldn't have any reason to let younger trainees play at all while they're still in the national cup and don't have friendlies, which isn't ideal either.)
To be honest, I still don't see the point of having international cups for all teams. There's nothing like that in real life football, and an international competition of lower league teams would be fairly meaningless anyway. Also teams that go far in the national cup will have at least 3 official games per week, which I think is too much and will drastically change the character of Sokker. It seems like a rather artifical solution for giving everyone at least 2 meaningful games per week, but as I've said elsewhere there are better ways of doing that (letting teams that are out of the cup play for placings, reserve team league, Arcade leagues, women's teams, more attractive youth games).
To be honest, I still don't see the point of having international cups for all teams. There's nothing like that in real life football, and an international competition of lower league teams would be fairly meaningless anyway. Also teams that go far in the national cup will have at least 3 official games per week, which I think is too much and will drastically change the character of Sokker. It seems like a rather artifical solution for giving everyone at least 2 meaningful games per week, but as I've said elsewhere there are better ways of doing that (letting teams that are out of the cup play for placings, reserve team league, Arcade leagues, women's teams, more attractive youth games).
Although I don't agree with an international cup (and would rather a league), it is an artificial solution, because sokker is not real life football.
There aren't under 8's, 9's, 10's etc.
There isn't div 5, 4, 3 etc
or states.
There isn't something for everyone. So something international is particularly important for countries who only have one or two teams.
What also isn't like real life football are nations like saudi arabia only have 4 clubs (but only one club shows up for matches), or national teams that pretty much just came from one club.
We need to remember this is a game, and the idea of a game is for everyone to have fun, have competition, and for the best managers, not just those lucky enough to be in the right country, to have the best chance of doing well.
Sokker does not need to emulate real life. If it can to make it more fun for everyone, that is a great perk, but what happens in real life should not be implemented (or something should not be disregarded just because it doesn't happen in real life), if it makes the game worse users
There aren't under 8's, 9's, 10's etc.
There isn't div 5, 4, 3 etc
or states.
There isn't something for everyone. So something international is particularly important for countries who only have one or two teams.
What also isn't like real life football are nations like saudi arabia only have 4 clubs (but only one club shows up for matches), or national teams that pretty much just came from one club.
We need to remember this is a game, and the idea of a game is for everyone to have fun, have competition, and for the best managers, not just those lucky enough to be in the right country, to have the best chance of doing well.
Sokker does not need to emulate real life. If it can to make it more fun for everyone, that is a great perk, but what happens in real life should not be implemented (or something should not be disregarded just because it doesn't happen in real life), if it makes the game worse users
I understand the problem of managers in small Sokker countries, and something should be done about it (but that's a topic for another thread). But certainly there are better solutions than forcing all managers into additional competitons that most of them likely won't care much about. For managers in most countries this will only be more pressure and less fun.
Another issue with the proposed new schedule and training system, what's the point of having friendlies when they won't even be relevant for training anymore? They'd become even more meaningless than now. Assuming the training bonus for official games is relatively small, you'd have up to 3 games per week with your first team and no meaningful games at all for your younger trainees. That doesn't seem like a good balance.
Another issue with the proposed new schedule and training system, what's the point of having friendlies when they won't even be relevant for training anymore? They'd become even more meaningless than now. Assuming the training bonus for official games is relatively small, you'd have up to 3 games per week with your first team and no meaningful games at all for your younger trainees. That doesn't seem like a good balance.
After knowing many interesting proposals from many fellow managers @achmid, @slavista, @sviktorov @romo and others and also the proposal of the devs, I am going to propose a proposal that can be a connection point between all. I don´t know if it will be too late because the devs have already decided on their final proposals but I would like them to analyze mine:
OPTION A:
It would be a mixed option, with group stage and then play-off matches. And it could be adapted to a league system with promotions and relegation. (although it could also be adapted to the cup system initially proposed by the devs, depending on the results of the league and national cup and without promotions and relegations).
That yes, my proposal I will make for the international league. It would be based on an organization in groups of 8 teams:
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
This organization, is diferent to other proposals, which reach 7 divisions, would allow to collect all the teams in only 5 divisions. Therefore, the highest level is closer to the lowest.
How to play
1- group stage of 8 teams, league mode but only one match against each rival (NOT home - away). The money raised each match is divided between the two teams (as it is now in the national cup or the CC). 7 games in total.
2- play-off phase
After the final classification of the group, all the teams play it. As proposed by @sviktorov or @Romo. From 1/16 to the final. (5 more games)
From the first to the fourth of each group they compete for the championship and from the fifth to the eighth they are not eliminated but continue to play with the teams also classified from fifth to eighth of the other groups. For example, at level 1 there are 64 teams among the 8 groups:
first from group A against fourth from group B, second from group A against third from B, first from group C against fourth from group D, etc etc ... for the championship or promotion. Or fifth of group A against eighth of group B, etc etc for relegation.
In this way, all those classified in the group stage from first to fourth play for the championship or promotion, from 1/16 to the final. All those who lose continue to compete with other losers until the final classification is resolved: from 1 to 32.
On the other hand, all those who have been from the fifth to the eighth will play relegation at the end of the playoff phase but will also play from 1/16 to the final to see what their final ranking is (from 33 to 64). The worse classified they finish, their rival at relegation match will be more dificult or, the last 8 classified (this is from 57 to 64, they would descend without relegation match, as is now in national league)
Finally, in the last week (14) the relegation matches would be played. . But if the devs continue with a cup idea, this relegation match will not be disputed (but I prefer international league with this system )
At level 2 to 5 , the system would be the same but with more blocks of 64 teams (8 groups of 8 teams). That is, at level 2 there would be 4 blocks of 64 teams, at level 3, 16 blocks of 64 teams, etc. And only the eight first clasificates of every block of 64 (that is, winners of 1/8) could be play promotion match
This system gives us several advantages:
1- at the top level (level 1) we will have a winner who will have won a final and will be the best in the world of clubs that season. I find it more exciting than a winner in a league system that can be champion in week 11, p. example
2 - We are talking about a competition in which all the teams in the world (10,000 teams) participate. If at the maximum level (level 1) only a group of 8 teams can play, it will be very very difficult for any team to reach level 1, and therefore remain champion. On the other hand, if there are 64 teams at level 1, everyone's possibilities are wide.
3- only 5 levels (already explained)
4- The relegation match could be played on the same day of the week, Wednesday in my calendar, as the rest of the international league matches. In Achmid's proposals, p.ex I see complicated the relegation games of the national league and the international league if a team must play both. Well, there is only one day assigned for both playoffs and they are not the same day as the rest of the international league games. Thing that many managers have requested (all the competition the same day)
5- As the competition is 12 weeks (7+5) + 1 relegation match (13) I make week 2 start since with the national cup we already made two official matches in week 1, and all the teams will play it. teams eliminated from the national cup on week 1 may start with the international league or international cup and will also have two official matches from week 2
6- As the national league needs the 14 weeks in this calendar, if we change the order of the competition days, week 1 of the international league or international cup, it could serve for the playoff of the national leagues of the previous season
See OPTION B on page 10 of this topic
(edited)
OPTION A:
It would be a mixed option, with group stage and then play-off matches. And it could be adapted to a league system with promotions and relegation. (although it could also be adapted to the cup system initially proposed by the devs, depending on the results of the league and national cup and without promotions and relegations).
That yes, my proposal I will make for the international league. It would be based on an organization in groups of 8 teams:
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
This organization, is diferent to other proposals, which reach 7 divisions, would allow to collect all the teams in only 5 divisions. Therefore, the highest level is closer to the lowest.
How to play
1- group stage of 8 teams, league mode but only one match against each rival (NOT home - away). The money raised each match is divided between the two teams (as it is now in the national cup or the CC). 7 games in total.
2- play-off phase
After the final classification of the group, all the teams play it. As proposed by @sviktorov or @Romo. From 1/16 to the final. (5 more games)
From the first to the fourth of each group they compete for the championship and from the fifth to the eighth they are not eliminated but continue to play with the teams also classified from fifth to eighth of the other groups. For example, at level 1 there are 64 teams among the 8 groups:
first from group A against fourth from group B, second from group A against third from B, first from group C against fourth from group D, etc etc ... for the championship or promotion. Or fifth of group A against eighth of group B, etc etc for relegation.
In this way, all those classified in the group stage from first to fourth play for the championship or promotion, from 1/16 to the final. All those who lose continue to compete with other losers until the final classification is resolved: from 1 to 32.
On the other hand, all those who have been from the fifth to the eighth will play relegation at the end of the playoff phase but will also play from 1/16 to the final to see what their final ranking is (from 33 to 64). The worse classified they finish, their rival at relegation match will be more dificult or, the last 8 classified (this is from 57 to 64, they would descend without relegation match, as is now in national league)
Finally, in the last week (14) the relegation matches would be played. . But if the devs continue with a cup idea, this relegation match will not be disputed (but I prefer international league with this system )
At level 2 to 5 , the system would be the same but with more blocks of 64 teams (8 groups of 8 teams). That is, at level 2 there would be 4 blocks of 64 teams, at level 3, 16 blocks of 64 teams, etc. And only the eight first clasificates of every block of 64 (that is, winners of 1/8) could be play promotion match
This system gives us several advantages:
1- at the top level (level 1) we will have a winner who will have won a final and will be the best in the world of clubs that season. I find it more exciting than a winner in a league system that can be champion in week 11, p. example
2 - We are talking about a competition in which all the teams in the world (10,000 teams) participate. If at the maximum level (level 1) only a group of 8 teams can play, it will be very very difficult for any team to reach level 1, and therefore remain champion. On the other hand, if there are 64 teams at level 1, everyone's possibilities are wide.
3- only 5 levels (already explained)
4- The relegation match could be played on the same day of the week, Wednesday in my calendar, as the rest of the international league matches. In Achmid's proposals, p.ex I see complicated the relegation games of the national league and the international league if a team must play both. Well, there is only one day assigned for both playoffs and they are not the same day as the rest of the international league games. Thing that many managers have requested (all the competition the same day)
5- As the competition is 12 weeks (7+5) + 1 relegation match (13) I make week 2 start since with the national cup we already made two official matches in week 1, and all the teams will play it. teams eliminated from the national cup on week 1 may start with the international league or international cup and will also have two official matches from week 2
6- As the national league needs the 14 weeks in this calendar, if we change the order of the competition days, week 1 of the international league or international cup, it could serve for the playoff of the national leagues of the previous season
See OPTION B on page 10 of this topic
(edited)
Although I prefer my schedule and competition, this one is also very interesting, and I like the promotion/relegation system you have come up with for the international side of things.
I would quite happily see mine or this one implemented in to the game, even if it is missing a regional aspect to it :p
I would quite happily see mine or this one implemented in to the game, even if it is missing a regional aspect to it :p
I agree that the format of International competition can be different than National league. For me the most important is the promotion an relegation system and full season length for everyone
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(edited)
+1
Very clever system.
Until now I really didn't expect that any other solution could be better than achmid's proposal (with the international league), but your idea for the international cup (with this very good play-off phase, which gives also the possibility to playing official matches for the teams who are not qualified in the first four in the group stage) is very inventive and probably it would be more exciting as the international league (which is the same system as the national league). It's quite simply and clear, understandable, too. I hope it wasn't too late.
I think your proposal deserves a new topic in this development forum. There is also one for achmid's idea, then why not for yours? Then could be found easier.
(edited)
Very clever system.
Until now I really didn't expect that any other solution could be better than achmid's proposal (with the international league), but your idea for the international cup (with this very good play-off phase, which gives also the possibility to playing official matches for the teams who are not qualified in the first four in the group stage) is very inventive and probably it would be more exciting as the international league (which is the same system as the national league). It's quite simply and clear, understandable, too. I hope it wasn't too late.
I think your proposal deserves a new topic in this development forum. There is also one for achmid's idea, then why not for yours? Then could be found easier.
(edited)