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Subject: Youth reform - poll
People often don't even read / don't understand what they read / don't know what the changes will bring to the game.
New is shiny, shiny is good.
New is shiny, shiny is good.
Yes, it is difficult to understand indeed.
I do also think changes must be simple and not to complicated.
I do also think changes must be simple and not to complicated.
It was very simple. Removing the worst random numbers in a draw.
A junior should start at 17y old max (remove 18y), should start at level 3 at minimum, should have talent max 5 (remove talent 5+) should stay at least 6 weeks in school…
it’s not the perfect solution but it’s work, its easy to change or reset if we need.
A junior should start at 17y old max (remove 18y), should start at level 3 at minimum, should have talent max 5 (remove talent 5+) should stay at least 6 weeks in school…
it’s not the perfect solution but it’s work, its easy to change or reset if we need.
Flooding the market with more, better juniors. This will depress the transfer economy, making it harder for new clubs to grow while increasing the cost of the youth system.
That is actually a worse system than the one we have now, and it doesn't even fix anything.
That is actually a worse system than the one we have now, and it doesn't even fix anything.
Well it’s fix at least a little the massive juniors that worth nothing, and give a better chance to most teams. Nothing terrible.
It should not flood the market, the median draw is currently useless, there is huge step of improvement before flooding. And even if it’s flood the market it doesn’t matter, price inflation is growing, and growing for a good reason. Even 16y old juniors are selling at 20 millions without any proof of talent. Why ? Because we can’t expect much better things and teams search a reason to spend their massive money :-p
If you want to sack your juniors every weeks and just wait years for the perfect draw it’s up to you, but imo most coaches are tired to play this kind of game experience.
(edited)
It should not flood the market, the median draw is currently useless, there is huge step of improvement before flooding. And even if it’s flood the market it doesn’t matter, price inflation is growing, and growing for a good reason. Even 16y old juniors are selling at 20 millions without any proof of talent. Why ? Because we can’t expect much better things and teams search a reason to spend their massive money :-p
If you want to sack your juniors every weeks and just wait years for the perfect draw it’s up to you, but imo most coaches are tired to play this kind of game experience.
(edited)
Here's what would happen
More youths
Youths are worth less but cost more
Newer clubs miss out because
A) They can't afford to optimise
B) They won't make as much money on sales
Bigger clubs miss out because
C) More costs
D) Less profit
But they gain because
E) They're the only ones who can afford that investment.
Which leads to the bigger clubs getting even further away from everyone else.
Just because a system is different, doesn't mean it's better. I'm an advocate for change, but this is a bad idea that doesn't fix the youth system and actually makes an existing problem worse.
More youths
Youths are worth less but cost more
Newer clubs miss out because
A) They can't afford to optimise
B) They won't make as much money on sales
Bigger clubs miss out because
C) More costs
D) Less profit
But they gain because
E) They're the only ones who can afford that investment.
Which leads to the bigger clubs getting even further away from everyone else.
Just because a system is different, doesn't mean it's better. I'm an advocate for change, but this is a bad idea that doesn't fix the youth system and actually makes an existing problem worse.
Why teams spending 20 millions for just one young’s? Because there are too much valuable young’s on market? You have a weird conception of offer/demand principle.
I'm going to repost this so I don't lose it. There's like 3 or 4 conversations ongoing about the same thing.
"I think theres a solution here that fixes the youth system and the Training VS Competition problem. You have to split them and rebalanced training.
Youth System
21 or under.
Player skills are visible.
Players train quicker but you can't choose training.
Players can be promoted at any point after 18, but can't be sent back to U-21s.
Players are autopromoted after 21
Youths can be sold while in the youth system.
Main Team
Training is slower, but you can choose what to train.
Everything else is normal
—————
Firstly, this fixes the youth system and makes it important for training.
It allows the training of youths without ruining the competition of leagues.
It becomes a question of when is best to promote youths, giving control to managers.
Obviously there would need to be some research into training balance, I'll leave that to people smarter than me. This system removes "Pointless youths" from the game by making them visible, so you don't wait 20 weeks for a Magical with Tragic pace.
Thoughts?"
That sorts the Youth System and Training without requiring further investment that most can't afford.
It ends Training VS Competition by giving you the option to leave youths in the U-21s.
It ends pointless youths by giving you the information to either
A) Fire them
B) Promote them
C) Sell them
And it ends this advantage for 16/17 year old.
"I think theres a solution here that fixes the youth system and the Training VS Competition problem. You have to split them and rebalanced training.
Youth System
21 or under.
Player skills are visible.
Players train quicker but you can't choose training.
Players can be promoted at any point after 18, but can't be sent back to U-21s.
Players are autopromoted after 21
Youths can be sold while in the youth system.
Main Team
Training is slower, but you can choose what to train.
Everything else is normal
—————
Firstly, this fixes the youth system and makes it important for training.
It allows the training of youths without ruining the competition of leagues.
It becomes a question of when is best to promote youths, giving control to managers.
Obviously there would need to be some research into training balance, I'll leave that to people smarter than me. This system removes "Pointless youths" from the game by making them visible, so you don't wait 20 weeks for a Magical with Tragic pace.
Thoughts?"
That sorts the Youth System and Training without requiring further investment that most can't afford.
It ends Training VS Competition by giving you the option to leave youths in the U-21s.
It ends pointless youths by giving you the information to either
A) Fire them
B) Promote them
C) Sell them
And it ends this advantage for 16/17 year old.
Camus is right, we have to much good juniors overall.
I've double checked - gauss curve, that is a request of many users here is already implemented - it works in terms of age, talent, and skill distribution.
So even gauss is not perfect with sokker scale - sure, we all get some juniors that looks like a bug, for sure there is a problem with top juniors that cannot reach the level of 16y good junior that was trained from the early beggining, but in the end curve is proper and we statisticly get well balenced juniors overall.
If you percive that we have to much weak juniors in sokker, that is a problem of perception mostly.
We get 1-6 juniors per week, so about 40 players per season to select, and here we are angry that we need to reject most of them - but it should be that way, even in top class academies it is impossible, to get some relevant juniors that will be promoted to the first team season after season.
That is normal, but user feels angry he gets a shit. Try to imagine it is open day in your academy, it is normal lot of to ambitiouns players appears, but they are not good enough to make a proffesional career.
you say that talent like 4,5-5 is useless. why is that? according to gauss it is the middle of the scale!
Well... even with gauss curve there is so many academies and selection is so high, that most users can pick up players with talent less than 4... so, lets look at gauss here - game is producing 100 new juniors, only some percent (lets assume - 20% have better talent than 4). and that 20 juniors stays in game currently, rest is eliminated. In the same time that 20% of players is enough to fulfil needs of most manager in the game - i think that everyone here uses only players with at least less than 4 talent.
So i would say opposite - actually we have to much good juniors (in terms of talent and long term potential).
I've double checked - gauss curve, that is a request of many users here is already implemented - it works in terms of age, talent, and skill distribution.
So even gauss is not perfect with sokker scale - sure, we all get some juniors that looks like a bug, for sure there is a problem with top juniors that cannot reach the level of 16y good junior that was trained from the early beggining, but in the end curve is proper and we statisticly get well balenced juniors overall.
If you percive that we have to much weak juniors in sokker, that is a problem of perception mostly.
We get 1-6 juniors per week, so about 40 players per season to select, and here we are angry that we need to reject most of them - but it should be that way, even in top class academies it is impossible, to get some relevant juniors that will be promoted to the first team season after season.
That is normal, but user feels angry he gets a shit. Try to imagine it is open day in your academy, it is normal lot of to ambitiouns players appears, but they are not good enough to make a proffesional career.
you say that talent like 4,5-5 is useless. why is that? according to gauss it is the middle of the scale!
Well... even with gauss curve there is so many academies and selection is so high, that most users can pick up players with talent less than 4... so, lets look at gauss here - game is producing 100 new juniors, only some percent (lets assume - 20% have better talent than 4). and that 20 juniors stays in game currently, rest is eliminated. In the same time that 20% of players is enough to fulfil needs of most manager in the game - i think that everyone here uses only players with at least less than 4 talent.
So i would say opposite - actually we have to much good juniors (in terms of talent and long term potential).
If even the vote values are unclear (1...6), this vote does not make any sense at all. It will by that automatically create false results, which do not reflect the players intentions of this vote. To my mind this reflects involuntarily these very questionable proposals.
Finally to my mind this could even make it worse, the status quo, make it even more unequal for the sokker managers, comparing 'newbies' and 'oldies' financial situation.
Moreover I hint on the comments of borkos007 following the original proposals to point at even more problems this could or will probably produce...
In German we call this "Verschlimmbesserung" (=worsening the situation by trying to make it better).... Unfortunely.... It all will have to be thought over again much more thoroughly.
(edited)
Finally to my mind this could even make it worse, the status quo, make it even more unequal for the sokker managers, comparing 'newbies' and 'oldies' financial situation.
Moreover I hint on the comments of borkos007 following the original proposals to point at even more problems this could or will probably produce...
In German we call this "Verschlimmbesserung" (=worsening the situation by trying to make it better).... Unfortunely.... It all will have to be thought over again much more thoroughly.
(edited)
I love how you have long complicated words for every occasion in Germany... ;-)
In Poland we like sayings more :-P in this case "lepsze jest wrogiem dobrego" which translates to "better is the enemy of good"
(edited)
In Poland we like sayings more :-P in this case "lepsze jest wrogiem dobrego" which translates to "better is the enemy of good"
(edited)
> I've double checked - gauss curve, that is a request of many users here is already implemented - it works in terms of age, talent, and skill distribution.
With "skill distribution" you mean the starting level? Because that's another factor
And that is exactly the problem: too many factors, which separately may follow a normal distribution, altogether cause the curve to be much higher
With "skill distribution" you mean the starting level? Because that's another factor
And that is exactly the problem: too many factors, which separately may follow a normal distribution, altogether cause the curve to be much higher
Yup, there are 2 „valuable” scenarios and both have almost everything in common
*week 1-4 entrance
*top talent 3.0-3.5
*good+ starting skill
*very short time in ys/one season time in ys
*week 1-4 entrance
*top talent 3.0-3.5
*good+ starting skill
*very short time in ys/one season time in ys
I think that the number of good juniors is not the same for all nationalities, it surely depends on the number of users in the country (+users per country +good juniors)
Maybe you should keep in mind that it is not a problem of small nations that can be punished.
Maybe you should keep in mind that it is not a problem of small nations that can be punished.
And that is exactly the problem: too many factors, which separately may follow a normal distribution, altogether cause the curve to be much higher
yes, exactly. but - in most cases it work i think, all good players in sokker went here from YS... we just focus on some extreame examples here, and build on that perception that YS is not working at all. That is not true, we rather need some small fixes here.
It is a problem, that currently good 16y junior is probably a better one than 20y devine junior, but we should focus on that, not involve in statements that we have to many weak juniors or to less talented.
yes, exactly. but - in most cases it work i think, all good players in sokker went here from YS... we just focus on some extreame examples here, and build on that perception that YS is not working at all. That is not true, we rather need some small fixes here.
It is a problem, that currently good 16y junior is probably a better one than 20y devine junior, but we should focus on that, not involve in statements that we have to many weak juniors or to less talented.
This problem with 16/17 year olds is such an easy fix. Just make sure they can't be pulled until they're 18.
16 year old comes in at Week 1? 28 weeks in the youth system.
Week 2? 27 weeks etc
16/17 year olds have no business being the main team anyway.
16 year old comes in at Week 1? 28 weeks in the youth system.
Week 2? 27 weeks etc
16/17 year olds have no business being the main team anyway.